Microjoys with Cyndie Spiegel

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this week on love in common we get the privilege of chatting with Cindy Spiegel the author of micro Joys finding hope

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especially when life is not okay during the episode I share what the secret is to having things in your life last

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Ernie reflects on the power of the perfect color of coffee and Aaron aspires to reaching Cindy's level of

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confidence and Trust in the unknown take a listen

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we live in a world driven by deadlines paychecks and political division but what happens during those moments in

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between it's those small slices of exchange that make up a life moments with neighbors

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Partners kids and caregivers come to the table with three very different life

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experiences we are meeting each other where we are at and asking the big questions about how

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to survive and thrive in those moments in between I'm Frank Schaefer I'm Ernie

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Gregg and I'm Aaron Bagwell This is Love in common

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foreign

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thank you for coming to our podcast oh it's my pleasure thanks for having me

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Ernie Frank meet my friend Cindy we go way way back in New York City world of

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Entrepreneurship but we so this is so funny so we've never had a guest on the

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podcast before so we've done about almost a dozen of these and it's just these conversations that we have from

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all different points of our lives and our different perspectives and our Journeys and we're just storytelling

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but Micro Joys I think is such a profound and interesting and fantastic

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concept and it kept coming up in my head and I kept being like let's do an episode about it and I feel so excited

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that we get to talk to the micro Joys originator herself the author of the book and this fabulous concept and I

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want to read actually a little section of your book too is that okay yeah I'd love that okay

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you say unlike our culture of instant Relentless toxic positivity micro Joys

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require practice awareness and focus to take root in fact it was during the most

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difficult time in my own adult life that I discovered the Revolutionary practice of observing micro Joys they helped me

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to restore my own relationship with hope and joy once again

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um and this idea that we can find pockets of joy in our everyday

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you know routines if we're looking for them I think is so magical and I think as you know humans who've survived this

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pandemic we were all grounded right in this intense place

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um of having to really be aware of our lives so do you want to share with us a little bit about kind of I'd love to

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know actually how your day is going and are there any micro Joys happening right now for you yeah I mean look at this

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light coming through the window that's pretty special um having the opportunity to sit here

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with you all that's a micro Joy like what a what a privilege you know uh I can I I feel like I now live

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through the lens of micro Joy so I will never not have one especially when going through some of the most difficult times

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yeah um I feel like anything that's not that is is there's nothing to complain

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about you know there's good to be found even even now when things are difficult uh though I'm certainly not wanting to

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call back in that experience in 2020 and 2021. the one thing I I wanted to say

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about micro Joys is I think as much as I'd love to say I created this I didn't it's just a name that I call the sort of

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being able to hone the ability to access Joy despite everything else that's happening so I think it's very easy to

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look at the word and assume it just means small things that you find throughout the day like small joyful things and to me it's it's much larger

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than that and it's much there's a lot more depth to it right because micro joints really ask that we

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shift our mindset to one that allows us to receive even when we have nothing left to offer

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so sometimes in that receiving right it's not about a tiny thing that we see it's about having the ability to access

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a memory it's um about being able to call on a friend to sit

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next to you it is yes seeing a rainbow outside of your window but it really is

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the most important part of it to me is finding Joy despite all else you know life is going to happen it's about

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having the ability to access Joy at the same time as we're accessing grief and

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not trying to separate the two which is often the conversation around joy and

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then we feel badly when we're in this play you know we feel badly because we want to be positive whatever that means

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to whomever is hearing this um and what I've learned is that we just we

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can't punish ourselves for going through what we are going through as part of our own Human Experience and so I would hate

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for anyone to feel badly about grieving or feeling sad it's like this book to me is about

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really holding both things at the same time you know and having a conversation about

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that it's interesting because what you just said um fits very much with the

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discussion that Aaron and Ernie and I have had in relationship to a loss Ernie

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had earlier and we've been talking about the subject of grieving a lot

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and you have just put into words something that we had talked about for a couple of hours in this podcast which

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was getting away from this idea which by the way I love the way you put toxic positivity of having to just get over

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something and move forward and we were talking about the fact no you don't get over anything and move forward what you

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do is hold those two ideas at the same time and you talk a lot about Paradox in

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your books which also happens to be something that is very much on our radar and we talk about all the time so I love

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this and I would like you to talk to us a little bit about how you connect these

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ideas of holding these two parts of our lives together and that itself being paradoxical and

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Paradox not seen as a way station between two certainties but actually the way things are in themselves Paradox is

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the way things are it isn't a way station that was my thought but it came to me very

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uh you know vividly from reading the book um and by the way I read every word and

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my only frustration was that the PDF did not allow me to highlight oh no because I was going to

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be very clever and scroll through your book and quote it back to you and now an end screening thing has been taken

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away from me well I'm really sorry to hear that you want to put those ideas together because I love this idea of a

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paradox combined with holding these two things of grieving plus also at the same

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time the micro joys um I think we owe you a copy of the book

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like an actual copy of the book when it comes out but

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oh hard copy right right what I would say about that is you know and I talked about this in the beginning of the book about how we

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really have to get used to the gray space most of life is not black and it's not white you know it's everything in

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between and that to me is where the Paradox lies it's like most

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nothing is there are very few absolutes right there are very few things in life

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that are there's just one way for it to be true or one truth and I don't think that our culture likes

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that I think that's not easy for us right we want an answer we want there we want someone to teach us the way

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um we want there to be one answer and what I realized over the past few

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years and I think I'd always known it but really living through the past few years and then writing this book

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in real time became it just became really clear how much Paradox there was

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you know how one essay I thought one way and then writing another essay a week later I felt differently and I was very

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mindful of not wanting to edit that out because I think that's just our lives right there isn't I I kept can I swear

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can I just say what yeah okay good um you know I was saying about we don't have kids so understand that our cats

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are our kids and so um we were talking about our kitten this morning and I said she's a

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nightmare but she's also really cute you know it's like both things can be true like you know she's absolutely a

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nightmare and she's cute some people might say the same about their children but we're also very cute but can be

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difficult and I just think if we we can find a lightness to things when we hold

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both things when we hold all things I almost don't want to say both because it sounds like they're in opposition you

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know it's all things we just leave room for all things and when I do that it allows me to move through my own life

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with a bit more likeness and a lot more grace because I'm not expecting one thing to

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be true I'm like no that's true and so is this one thing I'm gonna add one

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thing in the and then I'm gonna quit pretending I'm a host and just be the conversation here for people who are

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listening to this podcast I need to tell you something you probably haven't read uh Cindy's book

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micro Joys yet um and and I hope that's ahead of you but when Cindy's talking about

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this this Paradox of finding these moments of joy and life

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alongside grieving you need to know that the context of this is a her being

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diagnosed with breast cancer a mother who passed away a murder of a

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close relative and a number of other things and I only add that because I just want people to

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understand as they hear this whole conversation that the context of you talking about finding micro Joy within

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life as we grieve is not some theoretical idea to you

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um I hope you don't mind me setting it up that way no please I think that's really helpful to hear and it's

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interesting you say that because I think a big part of writing this book for me I wrote a book in 2018 called the

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year of positive thinking and when 2020 happened and that book is sold hundreds of thousands yeah there it is very cute

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it's Square it's fun it's all things good about the world and when 2020 happened

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I could not lean into anything I said in that book not because it wasn't true everything in

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that book is true it's beautiful but to me Micro Joyce is the evolution of that right A year of positive

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thinking is like you know I want to change my mindset I want to have things that I can lean into every day but when the hits the fan

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I knew that that wasn't what I could lean into I couldn't be in that space and then I felt guilty because I

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couldn't be in that space because here I am I've written this book about it and so shouldn't I be able to lean into

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everything that I shared with others and the truth was I couldn't and nobody planned on a global plague either

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correct correct yeah and that's the other piece of it right is all of this happened during a pandemic you know you

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you mentioned Frank that my nephew was murdered he was 32 at the time and we could have 10 people at his service my

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own husband couldn't go to my nephew's service because we needed for my brother who's that you know that was his dad

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like it all of it just everything about bat time I think

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obviously we couldn't have forecasted it but it was so much worse than anything I'd ever experienced as an adult and the

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pithiness and the you know well-meaning quotes and things they were not going to

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cut it when the hit the fan you know and at that point I just remember feeling like I didn't

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know who I was anymore because I walked through life being a fairly positive person you know sarcastic but positive

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and I couldn't do it and so it really sort of all of the things that you mentioned

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happened in a 10 month span of time yeah you know we were in a global pandemic my nephew was killed my mom passed away my

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49 year old brother went into cardiac arrest and spent two months in the ICU he came home I was diagnosed with breast

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cancer it was one thing after the other and that sort of compound loss is not uncommon yes so there are

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moments in our lives and I certainly don't wish this on anyone but what I've come to learn is that it's not uncommon

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where we go through these things and it feels like it just keeps raining down on us and so

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for me as I move through each day I would I was formulating different ideas and

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different thoughts around it and with perspective I realized that

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there needed to be a lot more depth and a lot more Nuance to how I walk through the rest of my life can I ask you a

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question and then I know that I've been talking Ernie you have to tell me to shut up and get in here and say Aaron

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I'm so sorry but it's just having literally got up at three in the morning and then I read the whole book in one piece oh my God like I've been so primed

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for our you already for our discussion you know and then they told

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me you have a heart out at 1 15 and I'm getting my questions in even if it looks like I'm being an sorry Frank I

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have to just say one thing and that is um I was so interested as as a writer of

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you saying well I wrote this in my last book but now I have learned something new you

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know people ask me because I've been writing now for almost 40 years and people will say to me they'll quote something back a book that's 30 years

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old and they will say you know and basically I'm not being facetious when I say well I meant it at the time

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correct but you know I'm 70 now I'm not the young dad that wrote this book 30 years ago uh and so I was so interested

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to see you even between two books as far as months and days ago are fairly close

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together yeah having said that and I just I just like the rest of your book so much better because you had mentioned

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that in your introductory remarks and I thought oh I kind of trust this person now because I'm seeing something that

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off my own experience I know is true and she's saying it right up front so okay I'm really ready to listen to the rest

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of this I like that so much thank you thank you for saying that you know part of that gray space that I mentioned I

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think is about Evolution and giving people not just ourselves but giving others the opportunity to evolve right

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exactly you know we have a culture right now that wants to call everyone on their and there's only one way and you

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said this thing in 1987 and those things may be true but I do think that we all

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have to show each other enough Grace to allow us to evolve yes and I think when

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you do anything that's permanent right any any sort of art whether it's film or you know you have a podcast or you write

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once those things are out in the world you can't take them back yeah all you can do is stand in them and stand for

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them and do say exactly what you said was I meant it at the time yeah and we have to get comfortable accepting that

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from others but at the moment we're pretty divisive and we're not in a space where we want to accept that from others

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and I think that's a hard place to be yeah I want to get like post receipts I want to get post cancellations I want to

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this okay so this book comes at a time for me when

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you know I'm not trying to read like self-help things I'm not trying to read like you know this is the way that you

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do these things whatever but looking at the last three years I was 42 when we

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went into a global meltdown uh you know my kid my uh

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exchange student got evacuated early from Switzer by Switzerland to go home

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because of this pandemic yeah one and a half years of lockdown losing 15 people

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coming out of that hosting again with a you know a school situation that wasn't ideal yeah losing my two best friends of

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28 years within three months of each other

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let me tell you that the first time I started crying when I was reading this book was when you talked about coffee

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the exact color that you like it um

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micro Joy oh my God talk about just like owning the space to just say no please give me

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this cup of coffee that I want to drink it's the one thing that I'm gonna have today let me please just get this one

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thing and you know it was it was your friends noticing that that is exactly

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what you needed and that was all you needed yeah to put you to rights and ah

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you know to make these connections again with people for people to see you to to get

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through this thing I'm I'm for I've I've accepted that I'm firmly in middle age now yeah you know and so I I have had

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just body blows for the last couple years and so to hold those things

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you know it's not it's not two things in two different hands it really is one thing that I'm holding with both hands

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it's all of it so I'm I'm I'm so grateful

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that you put a name to just allowing the grief allowing this

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morning allowing this beautiful morning your Rainbow coming in through your window all of it

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Take It All In take it all so thank you Cindy no thank you for

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sharing that uh I am sorry for what you've gone through thank you it's just

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garbage like there's no two ways about it it's just garbage and it's shitty and I'm sorry

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um with that said it brings me deep joy to hear you talk about that

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essay because I remember writing that essay and sitting in a cafe

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and not having anything to write and so I started writing about the coffee and I remember sending it to my editor and I

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was like this is a dumb essay but can you read it and she's like oh no this is

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not a dumb asset like and so hearing you say that it just brings me back to that moment of

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being so unsure of why I was sharing this much detail about the color of my

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coffee and now recognizing that you read that and saw what you did in it and how you

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get it you got I didn't get when I was writing that essay while I was writing it but somehow you were able to mirror

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back to me why I wrote that essay so I thank you for that I told Aaron in your in the specificity of your stories I

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found myself so clearly in so many of these stories that were very very much about your experience it was I felt I

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felt it so thank you for thank you for naming the coffee

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Frank talked about earlier erlson I can't Dairy anymore you know middle age since writing that book I

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wrote so much about dairy in this book anymore as I read essays I'm like

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there's the happen half again there's the happen I can't even hop it anymore so life has changed and that perfect

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color of coffee has shifted and it's gotten slightly grayer but it's still good it's still good

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thank you

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I felt the same about the White Walls by the way if you see my studio behind me you'll notice and my only quibble with

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you maybe in the whole book was you didn't have to apologize to people with awful White Walls and beige walls and

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say still invite me for dinner I think that that's a function of our cancel culture you didn't want to be canceled

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by the beige wall people you know you didn't need to apologize for that and said I feel I have all I have white

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white walls my husband is a photographer that's what we did deal with it she doesn't want the eggshell Army coming

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after I don't know

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yeah but I mean I was thinking to myself now there's a generational difference between the old 70 year old and and the

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younger writers because to me you know you think you're at middle age I'd like you know you're you're like you and

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Ernie are young I keep thinking oh gee at 40. um but in any place I'm saying to myself

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you know tough deal with it I've got white well I'm not apologizing for any there are no trigger warnings in my

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books it's a you know Aaron read something I sent her that I was working on it the way she told me to cut

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something is she said a thousand women's Brains just exploded when they read that line and so then I cut it

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but I didn't leave it in and then apologize right right right but what talk to me about the generational

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divider like you feel you need to apologize set things up yeah so let me

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be clear that I was not apologizing for my white walls I was apologizing to the people who uh might be offended by my

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hating beige balls yeah see but there's where it was for them and that's okay right different is good we don't all

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want to have the same opinions I know I I don't know how many I mean how many people are gonna see this but I wish you

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would see Frank right now with his arms across she's clearly very angry about uh

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that comment and I'm sorry to my friends who works I

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don't want to hurt their feelings I mean I like that you're apologizing for the apology exactly yeah yeah it's gonna go

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down a terrible Rabbit Hole I'm done I'm done you also had but I will say you also had colorful statement walls and

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floral wallpapers correct as well so yeah all of it there's walls for everybody here okay

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I have a question I have a question for Cindy okay

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um Cindy so one of the things that I wrote this in my review of the book was I feel like

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ah it was such a like a savoring experience the book is a micro joint

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itself to be able to read these chapters and go through and I'm just curious um as an aspiring writer

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you know how do you process and write and live through this trauma and then

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find the space to be so Clairvoyant about it like I was so in awe of your

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ability to process the grief and the trauma that you went through

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um each essay feels so intentional feels so grounded feels like you wrote it a

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thousand times like I can't figure out like how you were in this emotional place and able to produce such a clear

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piece of art oh my goodness thank you for that thank you uh what's the question

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tell me about your writing process tell me about experiencing the grief and then wanting to write about it is there space

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in between are you writing emotionally are you going back and are you a big editor like tell me more about that the

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art process yeah I'm not an I'm not a big editor I'm a writer and I said this in the book I capture everything

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um I capture if you want to know exactly the color of my chai or cup of coffee I can find a picture of it for you I

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capture everything I have 27 000 images in my phone of things that no one would take pictures of but they are what

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really helped me to go back and remember a moment I'm very visual so I was able to when I was writing that

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book I mean how do you think of I just remember sort of setting up to write the book right there's the

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proposal and you're like here's this thing I can do and then actually getting a book deal after it went to auction and

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going how am I gonna what stories what essays am I going to

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write about and so it just it became very much about what am I

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feeling in this moment what is connecting to me in this moment as someone who has spent the last two and a

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half years inward even after people started going out we moved to New Jersey and you know life has been quite

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different which I know Aaron you can relate to I had a lot of time to think and I had a

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lot of time to process but that doesn't mean I'm over anything right that just means that each of these

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essays were not highly edited they went through the editing process of course but they were not highly edited and that

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I would sit down and I would write all of my thoughts down I would send them over to my Editor to sort of grammatically make things right to

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change a word here or there but they are as um

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as they were originally written for the most part and I think it was just having the space to sit and write and the quiet

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to sit and write and also the physical space you know I talked about living in New York City where there's constant

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noise all the time I don't know of another time in my life that I've ever had such quiet as I have over these past

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few years like being able to sit in this wide open space and just look at my cats

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or look at a plant or just do nothing and having that space has allowed me to

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write anything that comes to mind and that's what I did but particularly the

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story about crying in New York it's a thing oh yeah ask any New Yorker yeah I

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had actually talked to my friend who lived in New York about that and he mentioned that before I read the book about walking around crying and I'm like

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well isn't there anywhere you can go it costs money to be alone in New York

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yeah no no no you're just gonna just yeah correct you cry you might put on glasses if you have them available and

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generally we all notice but but look away it's like it does it costs money right it's like just leave it a

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person alone they're in their stuff every now and again you slip them a tissue if it doesn't stop but otherwise you just stay in your bubble yeah giving

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people privacy in a public place yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but here I have the privacy in a private place which you

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know I didn't know with that but when you have that it allows you to think differently and be the world differently

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with a lot more perspective hey let me jump in with something that's

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going to change the subject slightly um let me tell you a little bit about this podcast and it's Genesis because I

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having read your book uh really made me kind of look at what we're doing on this podcast from the

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micro Joy's point of view and it's a much better fit than it should be in the sense that you know we're not really

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interviewing you here we're we're including you in this conversation because um

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um let me see let me give you the shortest version possible but I think it'll spark something

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um I'm a writer I've had my ups and downs some best sellers some books that have tanked I've had all kinds of

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different career changes uh Etc I come from an Evangelical fundamentalist background which I left

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and my father was a very famous Evangelical leader that's a whole other story and out of that has come a lot of

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stuff I've done and seven or eight years ago Ernie and I teamed up and he became my producer for a podcast and also a lot

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of public stuff I do he handles you know on my Facebook stuff and every there's a lot going on in my life that

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I've collected like baggage and so Ernie sort of my producer manager best friend whatever

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then I started doing a podcast and in the context of that met Aaron through somebody she knew in New York when I was

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launching a book and I became a huge fan of her films and I've been a filmmaker myself and

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we've talked back and forth the three of us uh when I've interviewed Aaron and also

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just done things together and I was on a panel launching her film in New York City and all kinds of crazy connections

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anyway long story short one of us and I literally don't know who came up with this idea but somebody said listen

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you're 70 years old and a father of three grown children and and five

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grandchildren and You Do child care every day for the three grandchildren across the street Aaron's a young mom

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trying to figure out postpartum depression and how to move from there Ernie is a gay man married to rock who's

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a pastor in a Progressive Church you guys have three points of view and

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three life experiences that are really different but you all agree on one thing and I'm not being uh cute here you all

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believe in micro Joys and in finding connection through relationships wherever you find them and so we've been

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doing this this relatively new podcast I guess we recorded 10 or 12 15 hours or so Aaron we're trusting Aaron with

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editing it because she's a wonderful Storyteller filmmaker we totally trust her so she's our producer and boss

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Aaron's the boss we're all sort of equal guests in this and I just think the fit with your view of Life forget the book

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for a minute but your the way you see life is exactly the way it's the in it's

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the same intersection that a middle-aged gay guy an old white male who grew up in a

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fundamentalist cult basically and left it a young mom who experienced postpartum and is fighting the everyday

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thing of like hey I finally got a babysitter from my husband doing this so we can do another podcast that part of

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her life she's in the striving how do you fit it together part of life but we don't really talk about those things we

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talk about the intersection where we all really live which is not the differences

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it's these crazy similarities correct so

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um that's what we do that's what we talk about and our discussions go to all kind of crazy directions and we have

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different points of view on different things but there's a tremendous kind of cohesiveness to it I just thought that

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you as a human being um whose book I just read and so I know you a little bit would find that concept

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itself quite interesting I do and thank you for inviting me into your conversation yeah uh for anyone who

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can't see me I'm a black Jew I'm a biracial black Jew so somehow bonus you got you got more of a perspective yes um

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I have found in a lot of the work that I do around Community overall and also being who I am in the world and and

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growing up how I did yeah we are often more alike than we are different there

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are many things about if you look at the screen there are many things about us that are physically different right but

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I think at the core of most human beings there are a lot of commonalities and I think of

31:24

we all want to be seen right we all want to be loved we all want to be seen like you can say no but I I do believe that

31:31

that is true of all of us or most of us um and I think the more that we can

31:36

perceive the world looking for connection the less likely we are to

31:41

separate ourselves from others and their experience and the less likely we are to

31:47

other people that are different than us so when I walk through the world there's a

31:54

certain assumption that most people I come in contact with are

31:59

going to have some similarity to me regardless of what they look like whether they are living in a home or

32:05

they're not living in a home whether they work at the cafe or they don't work at the cafe whether you own you know a

32:11

company or you don't like I just assume that we are more similar than not and what that has allowed me to do is be

32:19

comfortable in rooms that I'm not sure I should be comfortable in you know where what we're outwardly it's

32:26

like what the hell is she doing there how is she having that conversation but the truth is I just assume that we're

32:32

more alike than not and so there's a certain comfort and familiarity that I feel with perfect strangers and I think

32:39

that that mindset has allowed me to connect to people very easily and has allowed me to

32:45

move through the world in a way that is accepting of most things

32:51

I loved that um essay you wrote about your neighbor who Leonard Leonard yep

32:57

who was he was homeless is that correct or he was kind of living in a um he had a stuff in the storage unit

33:04

was kind of Meandering it was so interesting because I loved that essay for so many reasons when I was a new mom

33:11

in Brooklyn I remember just like feeling like a ghost walking the streets like the same streets every day all day

33:18

um and seeing um homeless people and like feeling a real connection to them because we're

33:23

just among the story like we're just living in the streets of New York and I'm just seeing the same people over and

33:28

over again um and I found like a real attachment to people who are just in the neighborhood

33:34

which I think as New Yorkers you do um but I also loved I'm a little bit

33:40

more standoffish I think in my you know openness to strangers of like

33:46

wanting to talk to them or wanting to know Leonard's story and I thought what a gorgeous gift to really think about

33:53

like it's okay to talk to a stranger because I feel like we're so conditioned you know to stay in our lane and don't

34:00

talk to your neighbors and be you know I think especially also as women like is it safe you know I I that's a layer that

34:06

goes through my brain you know can I have this conversation um but to just like really enjoy the essay

34:13

the conversation the story it's like oh yeah like we can we can loosen it up a little it's okay I love that thank you

34:21

and the one thing I'll say about Leonard and by the way that's not his real name but it is very close uh the one thing

34:27

we'll say about Leonard is I saw my family and Leonard I grew up poor I grew up with nothing I I don't think

34:36

to me someone who is experiencing homelessness is not that different than

34:42

I am they don't have a place to live right now full stop that's it like sure there were what other experiences there

34:48

but when I saw Leonard I saw like an uncle you know I saw folks that I grew up with

34:55

it he didn't seem so separate from me yeah um

35:01

and again I think that's the lens I walk through the world with I just I don't

35:07

see people it's not that I don't see what's right in front of me of course I do um but I just don't think we are as

35:14

separate as we think and obviously if I didn't feel safe regardless of if I saw an uncle and him or not I wouldn't have

35:19

stopped to you know to speak to him yeah so safety first okay um but I really did see family and Leonard like listen he's

35:26

this guy that's there every day like at some point there needs to be an acknowledgment and I don't understand

35:35

folks that can continue to walk by people day in and day out and none have a conversation because to me there's a

35:42

lack of Humanity in that

36:01

can I ask you a question uh yeah just on on because you brought this up about you

36:06

could have been an uncle um and then I have a very similar story about somebody I struck up

36:14

a friendship with who was homeless and was always begging from me on the upper west side when I was living there but

36:19

um if I forget to come back to that maybe Ernie or Aaron will remind me to tell my little story because it fits well with

36:25

yours but I have a question first something I haven't read your other book because I only got this one and I went

36:31

online looked it through because I was so curious to see what you had grown Beyond okay I'm gonna check this out

36:38

but um I guess what I wanted to do is is ask

36:43

you more about your family because you say you're you're Jewish and black I'm

36:49

presuming your mom was Jewish yes and you describe your father as a kind

36:55

of a hard driving hard drinking guy um please forgive me if I'm putting words

37:01

in your mouth this is why I wish I could have highlighted the book uh but sort of um working working guy

37:09

et cetera et cetera I want to know their story a little bit because and now I'm interested in you and I'm interested in

37:15

where you come from and and and by the way I'm a memoirist and I've written my story and I'm always a kind of I'll let

37:20

I'll say anything so I I delve in on family stuff and religion and beliefs in

37:26

ways that are uncool and intrusive so I'm being very impressive I want to know

37:31

how how your Jewish Mama hooked up with this guy yeah I want to know all about it I

37:37

want the very details to the extent that you'll give me the story yeah yeah

37:44

Emily I mean as you can see but also like that you know my dad what

37:50

the hell does that mean I saw that I did talk about her a lot in the book didn't I much more than you talked about him

37:57

yeah well it's interesting because what I was just gonna say about that was my dad if you think about one I wrote this

38:03

book my mom had just passed away nine months before I started writing this book my dad passed away when I was 28.

38:09

so there's been a lot more distance yeah and there's this great graphic and I'm going to come back to talking about my

38:14

family but there's a great graphic that I saw that is very resonant right now and it's a

38:20

graphic that shows a black hole of grief and it says this is your grief um and then this is there's a name for

38:27

this and I don't know it but it's a it's a circle of and it says this is your grief and

38:32

then there's a circle around it and says this is your life and essentially the outside the life piece gets bigger and

38:39

bigger and bigger the hole in the center which is your Greek doesn't get smaller it stays the same but your life grows

38:45

around it um and I think about that when

38:51

when you mentioned that I talk about my mom a lot more than I talk about my dad it's not because my dad didn't matter

38:56

it's just so much his love life has happened since he passed away you know where for my mom it was still so new

39:03

it's still right now so new um my mom grew up in a middle class

39:09

Jewish household Second Generation and it was absolutely not okay that she was

39:16

dating somebody who was black was dating somebody who was poor it was absolutely not okay I actually don't know much of

39:23

my mom's family what kind of Jewish household I mean we're talking about range from Orthodox all the way through

39:29

reform and reform secular who were they yeah yeah well I couldn't tell you too much about them because I don't know

39:35

them Frank I literally know my grandparents um a little bit about my aunt and that's

39:42

it because we didn't grow up with them and my grandparents died by the time I was eight years old so the access that I had

39:49

to my mom's family um is very little very little like we celebrated High holidays together and

39:56

you know my mom was left with all the silver that we would celebrate Passover with but there's so little for me to dig

40:03

into and at some point that'll be another book like do you still do any of that did any of that survive into your

40:09

adult chosen life any of what any of the Jewish tradition of celebrating anything or doing yeah yeah so we put up I put up

40:16

a pink Christmas tree and I light a menorah because then like this is not my holiday anyway so if I'm gonna have a tree it's going to be pink but I will

40:22

light a menorah I actually am hoping to get to Israel this year and to Africa

40:27

next year because you know at this point in my life I want to like as you ask me

40:32

these questions I'm like I can tell you about my parents but I can't tell you beyond them and you've been to India so you've done that I have I have yeah I've

40:39

been I've been all around the world but I haven't been to Israel I haven't been to Africa that's where my people are

40:45

from and I particularly after my mom passed away have felt such a calling

40:51

to go home whatever that means right because I think when you lose both of your parents and I may or may not get

40:57

emotional but in losing my mom I felt a need to find myself in a different way because I'd already

41:03

lost my dad you know well he's not lost neither is my mom she's not lost she's dead um

41:09

but I have felt this real calling to go back and put those pieces together

41:15

because you know I mean it wasn't even legal for my parents to be together when they got together

41:21

and so the idea that my mom my mom went out with my dad on a dare he was this

41:27

country bumpkin who was up north visiting his sister from North Carolina and you know my mom is like a

41:34

self-described fat Jewish girl from New Jersey who was bribed into going out with my dad was bribed or it was like a

41:41

dare she went out with my dad and they spent the rest of their lives together on and off now you mentioned that my dad

41:47

was hard driving he was definitely not hard driving he was hard drinking but he was very easy well I was not I was

41:54

trying to avoid saying hard drinking because that's okay coming you said that too I was being more reticent I was

42:01

apologizing yeah don't do that we talked about that Frank we talked about that in the beginning

42:08

you will no the interesting thing about my dad even though I didn't talk a lot

42:13

about him I am him in so many ways this man could make something out of nothing

42:19

and I talked about that in the one essay about him in the book and that he saw things that weren't there

42:24

we had so lit like we had a lot but we also didn't have a lot compared to a lot of other people it's just nobody around

42:30

us did so it didn't seem like there was such contrast but my dad would like

42:36

he had this ability to see things that were not physically

42:41

there to be seen it's I don't know if I mentioned the pink toilet in the India

42:46

I was mortified as a teenager to come home one day and see a big toilet and

42:53

the alleyway of our house with a plant inside of it people come here with a toilet outside

43:00

and I remember my mom my mom really nurtured these things she loved this stuff or the terrarium under the porch

43:07

with McDonald's toys I was like what on Earth are you doing this is not what people's parents do

43:14

he would build things like we somehow my mom somehow was able to pull up pull together enough money to get like an

43:21

above ground pool in our rented houses backyard and my my mom was a big lady so

43:27

she wanted to get in and out of the pool and she needed steps on the pool so instead of buying steps my dad took

43:34

milk crates and layered them like Steps going onto the pool and then poured

43:40

concrete into them bizarre but in hindsight I was like but

43:45

that worked yeah Charlie got in and out of that pool like a champ it's like these are the kinds of things that we

43:51

grew up with yeah or and my brothers and I like again I feel so lucky to have had

43:58

my dad as my dad in this lifetime because I'm like this doesn't even make sense like most people wouldn't get

44:03

it um what else did he just did so many things like that or again he was from the south

44:09

my dad had an eighth grade education I'm not somewhere between Fifth and eighth grade he said eighth grade but my aunt

44:15

said fifth grade but nonetheless they're used to barbecuing in the South and instead of just getting a grill my

44:21

dad built one in like into the side of the house you should not do that you should not do

44:27

that for safety reasons you shouldn't do it made the best damn chicken in that Grill ever so it's like there was this

44:33

weird he wasn't even a weird guy he was a very beloved guy but he just saw things that

44:39

nobody else did and created things out of nothing in really magical ways and my

44:45

mom always nurtured that like as the kids we were horrified like we just did

44:50

not like this we were so embarrassed and so ashamed and we were like why is he riding a bicycle why doesn't he

44:56

have a car everybody else's parents have cars and here's my dad like rolling up on like a 1960s bicycle in 1998.

45:04

but he had a the dynamic between the two of them how she just nurtured that she would tell

45:11

them that everything was great and that we had no creativity because we couldn't see it and and my mom was always the one

45:17

my mom's a serious one right she was the mama bear she my my mom put us before

45:23

everyone and uh she pulled no punches Shelly was highly sarcastic but she was

45:29

also very direct and very honest and the two of them were so very different anything that really needed to get taken

45:36

care of got taken care of by my mom you know anything that was fun and light that was my dad I would never go to my

45:42

father and have a serious conversation I I don't I I wouldn't even know what to say to him and I don't think he'd know

45:48

what to say to me so the way that we all loved each other was very different the way my Dad loved me and the way that I

45:55

loved my mom one was much more I think about my relationship with my mom it was very

46:02

um we were always going toe-to-toe with each other you know I was the only girl I was her only daughter I was a grown-up

46:09

like I was always arguing with my mom and there were what four of you four four of us and and your brothers are

46:16

older or younger I'm sorry if they're all older I'm the youngest and I'm the only girl and I have three older brothers and how did they all do or are

46:22

you the the big achiever go off to school and get post graduate everything yeah yeah my brothers have all served

46:28

time in jail um they chose a very diff and I'm very close to my brothers and they're doing

46:34

okay now thankfully but we you know my oldest brother is nine years older than

46:39

than I am I speak to him every single day we grew up going through very separate

46:46

in many ways we have different childhoods you know my parents were on drugs at one point my dad was an

46:53

alcoholic being nine years younger I didn't get the brunt of that but they did

46:59

um you know and so we grew up differently and and all of us were troubled in

47:04

different ways but I I was very clear that I was going to go somewhere and I think from a very young

47:11

age I also knew that education was going to be my outlet when you said we were all when we were all troubled in certain

47:17

ways how did that manifest in you oh God I was sneaking out of the house I

47:24

was honestly it stopped by the time I was 13 but there was like the age between like 12 and 13 or I'd say 12 and

47:29

13 and a half was my mom was really concerned about what I was going to turn into sure and who I was going to be in

47:35

the world and by that time were your older brother's already in trouble oh yeah yeah they had been from probably

47:40

their own teenage years yeah yeah they had been and you know these were black boys in the

47:47

80s and 90s sure their lived experience was very different

47:52

um than mine was and the where we grew up was really under resourced I

47:59

don't think anything was expected of them and my mom even when she struggled with

48:04

addiction held us to a very high standard you know she never she wasn't

48:11

um she wasn't a mom who wasn't around she was always there and she but I think

48:17

there's something to be said for what you s what you do versus what you say yeah by the time I was a little bit

48:23

older my mom was saying what she was doing my brothers didn't necessarily get

48:28

that same security and you know I also had a mom who told

48:34

me from a very young age how smart I was and how capable I was and how I

48:39

shouldn't you know she sat me down almost as long as I could remember she talked about race you know she as best

48:45

she could she just said some people aren't going to like you because of the color of your skin that's their problem not yours don't ever forget that

48:51

you're not like giving the same kind of advice not advice but yeah to my brother to your brothers I mean she's telling

48:58

them they were smart too uh when they were yeah I mean

49:03

I think they also show different behaviors there was without question there's a running joke in our house

49:10

that's like Cindy you know your mommy's favorite and I would tell them I was gonna ask are you the favorite well I apparently yes but I would tell my mom

49:16

I'm like Mom you can just say it like at this point I'm in my 40s like everybody knows I'm the favorite she's like that's

49:22

not true everyone is my favorite one last detailed question and then I'll

49:28

bow out here but such an interesting story did you find that given the problems your brothers were having yeah

49:35

the background you came from your compunction to strive anyway that now in

49:42

looking back in retrospect as a 40 year old yeah do you think you wasted some

49:47

time looking back at over achieving in the sense that

49:53

um you know you've done a lot fashion industry and now you're doing this and you're an organizer and you're doing all

49:58

this stuff at a certain point have you gotten to the stage of your life which by the way I have speaking for myself kind of

50:06

looking back and saying what the hell were you trying to prove and why did you spend so much time

50:11

seeking either affirmation from other people or doing this one extra thing

50:18

like from my perspective now you know I have to really be pushed to do anything

50:23

that I don't really feel compelled to do that wasn't always the case I went through a big period of striving in

50:29

various Industries sometimes successfully sometimes not but as I look back I think I was trying to prove I can

50:35

get beyond that fundamentalist upbringing and maybe my Father's son but see me for myself I had other agendas

50:42

besides what I was sort of doing and I wonder if you know

50:47

you're such an achiever I just wonder how you look back now or if you're still in the midst of the push you know pushing forward

50:54

to not be in that state of mind at this point or or do you see that because you've made a huge leap out of a

51:01

background into a completely different kind of a life I'm curious about that

51:06

so what's interesting is I don't feel like I ever I don't look back and

51:12

think who were you trying to prove anything to I know exactly who I was trying to prove something to myself and my mom yeah okay essentially I felt like

51:20

I was and I said this I think in the book I I realized over these last few years how

51:26

much I was doing in an effort to make her proud so that my mom knew that

51:31

everything that she accepted in her life losing her family like so much

51:37

um was for a reason and that I was to show for that regardless of what my brothers did yes I needed her to know

51:45

that some good came out of that so I and I

51:50

always knew that like it was never a question to me I never

51:56

felt Frank like I had to prove anything to anyone because I grew up with a mother that told me I didn't like

52:03

one of Shelley's famous lines was like you don't know these anything yeah and I believed that I

52:09

didn't owe them anything but I did feel internally like I owed her everything which is why it's been so challenging

52:16

these last few years because and I appreciate that you keep calling me 40 but I'm 45 now Frank and as a 45 year

52:23

old there's this weird sort of saying well who am I when my mom's not here sure I

52:30

knew how to do things to make her proud but I don't know what those things like

52:35

now there's this sense of but what do I want so I have no regrets looking back about

52:41

why did I spend so much time doing that I think I'm proud of everything that I've done and I didn't

52:48

I didn't take a lot of along the way because I don't think I

52:54

felt like I needed to do you feel your mom saw enough of what you've achieved so that you feel

53:00

Vindicated as in you that part of your life came out the way you were hoping because it seems to me yeah that she

53:07

would have seen you see some amazing things and she'd lived to see that and I guess was in her you know I won't say

53:14

right mind but was able to really take oh yeah instance of it and she wasn't her right mind my mom was in her right

53:20

mind up until about three days before she it's like she would not let go sew and her dad her damn mind right

53:26

um but yeah no she she was very proud my mom was she saw everything and I I

53:32

believe and you'll know this from the book I think she still sees everything sure um somehow I

53:38

yeah and and there was almost a point where I'm sure I could have stopped proving anything right I've proven

53:43

myself she already knew how successful I was yeah um but at that point you don't stop you

53:50

just keep going right and so the last few years it's like where am I going um like now that I don't have to keep going

53:57

to prove anything where am I going um so she did see that she did see that and now I'm in this place of figuring

54:02

out where it is that I want to go for me I'm finding that middle age how are you

54:08

finding after this you know we're the same age and so I'm wondering you know your experience of having come out of

54:15

the pandemic and you know just kind of the last three years that we've just kind of written off and yeah there's no

54:20

there's no real connection to the Before Time you know I feel very disconnected sometimes yeah especially after all this

54:28

loss you know finding that way forward finding the reason for doing any of

54:33

these things yeah you know one foot in front of the other yeah that's all I can

54:39

do you know when I think about the before times or before I live through the hardest things I didn't just know

54:44

what to do next I don't have that inner knowing anymore I'm like what is the next right thing I'm like all I can do

54:51

is put one foot in front of the next and make good choices and stay in alignment with my Integrity but I have no big

54:59

plans someone asked me the other day they're like oh what's on the horizon for the next nine months to a year I was like I have no idea my hope is

55:06

to wake up tomorrow um there's a little bit of a starting over in some ways obviously with

55:12

everything we've done up until this point but there is a little bit of a feeling like everything is brand new

55:18

again yeah and I don't have an answer as to how excited I am are we excited about

55:23

that are we excited that we have maybe a fresh start I don't know I don't want to believe yes this is good

55:30

news I don't need more bad news you know this is good it's good I think for a moments where

55:37

it's good and moments where you're like I really miss knowing who I was small things right it's all of it sometimes

55:44

it's great and sometimes it's not I want to read a Cindy I hate to cut you

55:49

off but I have to read you to you because this is like a perfect quote for this moment um in this conversation

55:55

Ernie um from page 178 you write the ground beneath me has shifted beyond my own comprehension but in glimpses I

56:02

remember who I was and so I lean in I sit I feel I talk I ball I walk I keep

56:08

walking and I wait until the past me the past and present me finds a bridge

56:13

until I am firmly rooted once again until the next time that I'm not and the process starts anew

56:20

that idea of like you finding a bridge to your past self I feel like is so

56:25

relatable you know I think what Ernie was saying before about and I texted you this or dm'd you on

56:32

Instagram like I felt like you were in my brain there I had this moment like at a swim class with my kids where I like

56:38

looked in the mirror and I didn't recognize myself at all and it was so scary because I was like who is this frazzled like

56:44

you know chubby mom woman who's like has no makeup on and didn't look in the mirror today and you know I feel like

56:51

it's there is something kind of unsettling and I guess I can only speak from my own experience of feeling so

56:58

confident in your identity and then having it shatter and then being like what the do I do now and how do I

57:06

move forward and I love this idea that you painted of the bridge of like

57:12

being patient and letting things come and looking back a little

57:17

you know but it is so scary to be on the horizon and to have no idea what you're doing yeah I the thing is Aaron I don't

57:25

even know if it's scary for me I am not afraid

57:32

I just don't know and I've gotten comfortable in the not knowing I don't

57:37

need to know you know yeah no actually I don't know I feel a lot you don't you know yeah I'm not

57:45

afraid I'm not afraid I just don't know and I'm okay with that

57:51

I I trust my instincts I trust my Integrity I trust my intuition

57:57

so I'm not afraid of any of it I just don't have answers and coming from a

58:03

place where I was so confident in everything I did and I just knew every next step or I felt like I did there is

58:11

a strange disconnect from that because I look back and I'm like

58:17

was I so naive that I really thought I knew what was going on around me there was almost a night a naivete to who I

58:25

was yeah that today is washed away and I'm like this is me naked and so I don't

58:31

know what's gonna happen next I'm not afraid of whatever it is but I just don't know what it is

58:36

yeah that's it no not fear just uncertainty I love that I aspire to be

58:43

in that place of comfort in the discomfort I'm not there yet waves

58:59

I'm gonna jump in for a second here because it brings up something that um that I want to share from a different

59:05

perspective of a little further down the track in terms of age and looking back at these very questions which I've

59:13

experienced every facet of what you've just talked about and also Aaron at different times

59:18

and you know how you were saying that your work in this book

59:24

um was unedited pretty much raw you send it to your your your editor a few things

59:30

changed here and there but it's pretty much what you wrote and they're in very short pieces relative to what you expect

59:35

in normal chapter to be it's almost you're kind of with you in that moment then you put this little piece of pulse

59:42

kind of at the end a little consideration so forth I like that the form very much but um

59:48

it seems to me you know speaking from my perspective that as I look back at my

59:54

life in terms of what really wound up making sense at the time and still does today there's a huge difference it's

1:00:01

like moving beyond something you've said in a book well similarly it's like what made sense at the time

1:00:07

what made sense then that still makes sense now and then you're down to a very few number of things oh interesting and

1:00:15

my perspective has been this and it's funny because as I understand it um you don't have children no children cats

1:00:23

Ernie does not have children Aaron's in the middle of having kids I got Jeannie pregnant when we were 17 and 18 53 years

1:00:30

we're still together and in love and that's a whole different kind of story so

1:00:36

where's the intersection where we all when we hit 70 where I'm at are going to find certain things true and if I can

1:00:42

say hey from my perspective on the trail let me hand something back to you

1:00:48

the things that last are based on elements in our life that

1:00:55

are non-negotiable because of love the your husband

1:01:02

Ernie and rock Aaron and her children and husband or the love of say writing

1:01:08

it's not all just relationship love when you are privileged to have things

1:01:14

in your life that are non-negotiable based not on gain or greed or fame but

1:01:19

love whenever you are faithful to those things you will have no regrets about them

1:01:28

everything else will go away take it from me so all the little triumphs all

1:01:34

the things that you think are driven so if I if you were asking me for your advice which you're not but if you were

1:01:41

um and Aaron or whomever or Ernie I would just say from my perspective

1:01:46

um understand that if you want things to make sense in the long term

1:01:52

then always make sure you are faithful to those things that are non-negotiable based on what you actually love yeah

1:02:00

and that's why sometimes your best writing was the easiest and you think there must be something wrong with this it was too easy

1:02:07

how did I write this whole novel just one chapter after another and it's still my best piece of work

1:02:12

you know and since then it's taken so much more work to do something it was too easy well it's because it was

1:02:19

actually the most loving it was based most on the love of the actual being in

1:02:24

that moment of writing and really loving it and it and and I think the same thing about relationships so

1:02:30

I don't have to figure out what I'm doing this afternoon because I'll be picking Nora up my eight-year-old granddaughter my youngest of my

1:02:36

grandchildren it's a non-negotiable obligation so from three till six will be very

1:02:43

simple for me it isn't what do I feel like doing who do I want to be what shall I write next not do I feel like

1:02:51

doing this and to your point Cindy not even do I enjoy it yeah all the time but

1:02:56

it's non-negotiable right and so it's very clear to me I happen to now know

1:03:02

from the perspective of a 70 year old that when I look back on how I spent that part of my afternoon even if I'm

1:03:08

pissed off because I'd rather be doing something else right now which is not usually the case I will still be glad I

1:03:14

stuck with the non-negotiable love-based obligation yeah and that's all I would

1:03:20

say and it applies to art or cats or husbands or lovers or writing or filming

1:03:27

coffee coffee hey no kidding your whole thing on going into that store that

1:03:32

sells spices is like yes in Boston I totally love that essay yeah thank you

1:03:38

that's about it that would be the only thing I would say to everybody president and to myself

1:03:43

and I have to give myself this little talk once in a while yeah in terms of use of time and energy and that is just

1:03:49

stop for a minute what's the most important thing in this room right now it's my wife sitting

1:03:54

across from me at The Breakfast Table that's non-negotiable that's a whole lifetime

1:04:00

it has nothing to do with what should I do next this is the non-negotiable immovable piece without which I am

1:04:07

nothing and if I trade this for any of that I'd myself up to the point of total

1:04:13

self-destruction that would be me and I feel the same thing about getting up and writing if I'm writing a project

1:04:20

it has to be about actually loving writing it can't be about well what next step does this door open for me and I

1:04:28

just think that's the most basic thing I've learned about living in 70 years that's it right there

1:04:34

well if I'm going to be honest I'm going to just put in a little asterisk on there I don't have biological children but I have my exchange kids that I would

1:04:42

bleed for I love those guys so much and that was something that I

1:04:49

didn't count on in my life so anyway honesty and you know yeah and my husband

1:04:55

um who I love and we just had our 19th anniversary so I love him very very very

1:05:01

much um that living in honesty and living in

1:05:07

that love bit I I really didn't understand that until a couple years ago

1:05:13

and not to trivialize this but I felt the same Cindy about you talking about coffee the right color the spice store

1:05:20

and it was like this woman's writing lives because she loves something

1:05:27

um that's what lives in your book that's the best parts of your book is what you love best we're not talking scale here a

1:05:34

big or little yeah yeah I get that what I wrote down I sit here and take notes

1:05:39

whenever I'm in conversations for thanks to stick but what I wrote down is it is

1:05:44

this in homage to love there's almost a question like there are certain things that I

1:05:50

think are so pivotal and so important to remember I put that question is this in

1:05:56

homage to love I put that next to the reminder that this too shall pass meaning there are

1:06:03

certain things that we can remind ourselves of over and over again and I am so grateful to you Frank for saying

1:06:09

that because it's not a perspective I would have thought about but it's true right there is this sense

1:06:17

of now I just want to go forward asking myself for everything that I do is this in homage to love and again it's not

1:06:24

about the scale of love right like if you look at all the essays in the book or just my lived experience

1:06:31

there there is a love to it and when there is a love when we do anything in homage to love

1:06:38

there is an Essence in that and there are details in that and there's truth in that and there is integrity in that and

1:06:44

you never have to fight your way through it yes those things actually come quite easy

1:06:51

it doesn't mean that there's no difficulty within it but those decisions ultimately are pretty easy to make and

1:06:57

so I love sort of walking away from this discussion having that simple reminder

1:07:03

of like is this an homage to love because to me it's also is this in

1:07:09

is this in alignment with my Integrity is another way of saying that right like

1:07:14

if you walk in love and I hate to say like that because come on if you walk in love but

1:07:19

but if you walk in that it does make life a little easier to

1:07:24

hold on to and I think that's in your book yeah and that is the essence of the

1:07:29

book and I before we're done because I know you have a heart out I want to pay you the highest compliment that I know how to pay okay and I'm being serious

1:07:36

from the heart and that is I have five grandchildren and I want to give them

1:07:42

each a copy of your book yeah and that's the highest compliment that

1:07:47

as one human to another I ever pay and I don't do that but my 14 year old Lucy needs to read

1:07:54

this book because you know what the her iPhone is trying to kill her and so strong

1:08:00

and they all at different stages and I want my grandchildren

1:08:06

to read your book that's the most I can do for a book that's if I really care about something

1:08:12

now you're talking to the most basic me and I really want to share that with you and I will get the meet you copy and

1:08:18

they will read it God willing um right and going into this book going into this book I I actually I had that

1:08:26

feeling Cindy where I was like all right okay here we go tell me how to live my

1:08:31

life and then by the end I wrote my little review uh that says I laughed and cried out loud multiple times throughout

1:08:37

I now count Cindy as a friend and I'm excited to tell her that when I ever meet her so I'm so grateful for this

1:08:45

book and I I am happy to call you my friend now because at the end I was laughing and crying with you so I really

1:08:52

appreciate you Cindy you are the best ever we love this book I mean if those

1:08:58

weren't the best um oh reasons to go out and buy 100 copies I wrote this in my review on Goodreads I

1:09:04

said I'm going to buy a stack of them I'm gonna give them out as housewarming gifts I'm going to give them out as neighbors I mean this is like what Oprah

1:09:11

would call like her secret stash that you can just give because it's so Universal I think Marie kondo like

1:09:17

watched the out like you've got enough to build off this book like this is it sister

1:09:22

um we only have a couple more minutes where can people find you what do you want to plug how could we our love and

1:09:28

common family support you oh thank you thank you all before I get into where you can plug me

1:09:34

um thank you all for saying that this is still very early the book doesn't come out for another six weeks and so you're

1:09:40

one of the first ones I'm having a conversation with and a discussion with and this has been so beautiful and so

1:09:46

heartwarming but also honest um and thank you for just sharing your

1:09:52

thoughts with me because one of my hopes with this book is that I'm not telling anybody else how to live

1:09:58

I'm like I'm not qualified to tell anybody else how to live so thank you for reminding me that sometimes in

1:10:04

sharing our own lived experiences and details it finds a bridge to the people who need it so truly thank you thank you

1:10:11

for saying that um anyone can find me on Instagram you can join dear groness women if you're

1:10:17

35. um you can find me on LinkedIn I'm just kidding I don't even know how to

1:10:22

use LinkedIn just find me online

1:10:27

Instagram yeah yeah I'm on Instagram and my website yep

1:10:33

and by micro Joyce for everyone 10 copies 10 copies you have to buy it yeah correct and can

1:10:41

I just say look at this sticker so cute oh it's great sticker I need a

1:10:47

sticker how do we get a sticker that's the screenshot right there isn't that ridiculous I mean you might know

1:10:53

somebody who has the stickers all you got to do that all right all right everybody else has to buy five

1:10:59

copies and then tell me they didn't tell me your seat but for you all like thank you perfect thank you thank you so much

1:11:06

I thank you please stay in touch please stay connected goodbye everyone thank you

1:11:12

thank you have a beautiful day this has been a Frank Schaefer Ernie

1:11:18

Greg and Aaron Bagwell production music by Sal mastercola if you have enjoyed

1:11:24

the podcast be sure to rate review And subscribe and most of all share with a friend colleague or someone you care

1:11:30

about and if you have ideas for future episodes please don't hesitate to reach out all the links we discussed are in

1:11:36

the show notes until next time foreign